DISCLAIMER: This is NOT a certified or verbatim transcript, but rather represents only the context of the class or meeting, subject to the inherent limitations of real-time captioning. The primary focus of real-time captioning is general communication access and as such this document is not suitable, acceptable, nor is it intended for use in any type of legal proceeding.

[upbeat dance music]

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Hi, Ruth, thank you for joining us. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey with LAPL?

[Ruth Seid:]
Well, I started when I was twenty-five as a library clerical assistant, which was the precursor to what are now the admin clerks. And I was on the Valley Bookmobile Unit, which was a great experience. I learned to handle crowds, I had wonderful people who mentored me, who taught me technical skills, who taught me interpersonal skills. They taught me how to view the public as a public librarian, even though I wasn't a librarian yet.

[Ruth Seid:]
I briefly became a library assistant, but when I went to library school, I had to go back to halftime and- go back to being a clerk, so I had to be halftime and went to library school at UCLA, emphasized public libraries, and started as a children's librarian at the Memorial branch under Roy Stone, who taught me more and more about how to be a good public librarian, how to think in terms of the patrons first and our community. He taught me really good customer service skills, which I had to keep learning throughout the years, but he gave me a really good foundation.

[Ruth Seid:]
I then went to the Panorama City branch as a children's and then became the senior librarian at the Science and Technology department. From there, I went to the Wilshire branch as a senior and then became an area manager and for the last twenty-two years until this summer, I was an area manager in three different areas. I retired just a couple months ago, after just shy of thirty-nine years with the library.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Wow. Thirty-nine years is-

[Ruth Seid:]
Yeah.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
That's a pretty impressive track record and you've been- I know that we are a very large system encompassing seventy some odd branches, so that's- you've been really all over LA.

[Ruth Seid:]
Yeah. I've worked in four of the six regions and Central Library.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Wow.

[Ruth Seid:]
Yeah.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
That is- I love that. I love that there is- I love how large the city of LA is and I'm sure that you've encountered a whole slew of different communities and community needs within the branches.

[Ruth Seid:]
Mhm. Yeah.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Wow.

[Ruth Seid:]
And that's one of the great things about working for the city, is that you have these opportunities to move to different communities, to work with different communities and in different capacities and in different types of librarianship, so yeah. That's one of the great things about having worked for LAPL.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
So, as you've worked across all these different areas and you've been, especially, like an area manager, how have you seen the library's approach to inclusion and representation evolve over the years?

[Ruth Seid:]
You know, at the very beginning of my career, or near the beginning, the library decided to establish these months- each month celebrating a different culture and it was a struggle at that time to get LGBTQIA become a month rather than a week. And we pushed for it, but there was resistance and even in some of the other months, there was resistance. "Oh, we don't serve- we don't have any Asians in our community, we don't need to do anything for this month. Oh, we don't have any gay people in our community, we don't need to do anything for that month."

[Ruth Seid:]
And this was in many different cultures that this happened, many different months and the system- the administration at the time was a little bit- how do I say this? It was a little bit resistant to really opening things up, but a lot of activism helped and it wasn't just LGBTQIA activism, it was a lot of different groups, a lot of different people in the system who said, "No. African American history month is for everyone. Latin American history month is for everyone."

[Ruth Seid:]
And eventually, it was enforced to a certain extent by Collection Development, a program where each branch got a group of fifty books for each month that were just added to their collections, rather than having people say, "Oh, I don't need any of these books because nobody in my community wants them." So the administration went along with that idea but it was not an easy sell. It was not something that they thought of, it was not something that they were particularly interested in endorsing, but with enough pressure bowed to.

[Ruth Seid:]
And since then, things have changed. I think we have a lot more willingness on the part of administration to say, "Yes. All of these are city-wide initiatives, system-wide initiatives, they are not just for the branches where the communities are majority Black or Latino or Asian or LGBTQIA." I think John has made a huge difference, he just automatically came in being happy to endorse queer projects. I think that he took it as a matter of course that these- that the initiatives are for everybody and that change in attitude, I think really has opened up the system. I'm not saying anything's perfect, I think there are still some big problems. I am recently become aware of another, of an issue that happened here at Central Library, but compared to thirty-five years ago? Big changes. And I think a lot more sincere endorsement of inclusion from administration than there had been back then.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Sure. And I know that at my time being with LAPL, I've seen a lot of what John has brought in and I know that we'll get to hear from John at some point too in these episodes, but along with him coming in you said with these initiatives to get books and to start making these months, is there one of those initiatives or events that really stands out to you? I know that in my time here, I've seen a lot of forward progress for these kind of initiatives, these events, making sure that they're celebrations across the system and taking advantage of the diverse communities we have. And I know we'll get to hear from John and to hear from his point of view on those as well. Do you particularly have a certain memorable event or initiative that really stands out to you as emphasizing the library's commitment to diversity?

[Ruth Seid:]
Yeah. I was the West Valley area manager when the West Valley branch had a drag queen story time. There were threats of picketing and demonstrations and rather than backing off, the- of something that was still pretty new, there had only been a few other systems that had had them at that time, and they sent PR, they sent security in case there were problems, things were handled really beautifully when there was a security issue, and I didn't know that I could- I was not sure that I could expect that support from administration, but we got it and that really stands out as such a difference and such a statement from administration that there was support for drag queen story time, that it was not half hearted.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Right. And I remember- if it's the same one I was at, I remember seeing-

[Ruth Seid:]
Probably.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Staff and other members of LAPL and the city just in the crowd there to enjoy it, but also seeing such a strong community presence, not just from, you know- the community that goes to that branch, but also from across our system, which is really- it's really heartening to see that and I love it.

[Ruth Seid:]
Yeah.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
And I know that the LGBT services committee was not always as robust as it was, and I think you mentioned before it used to go under a different name, GLUE?

[Ruth Seid:]
Yes.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Is that correct?

[Ruth Seid:]
Yes. Back in the late 80s, early 90s, when the months were being established, there was a committee that got together to push to make June- the whole month, rather than LGBTQIA- at the time it was LGBT- week, which was what administration had proposed and we said, "No. Give us the whole month just like every other group has a month." And it was a small group- fair size. It was all of the members, as far as I know, identified as gay or lesbian, maybe bisexual, but- which is very different from the current iteration, where we have a lot of supporters who are, a lot of members who are not necessarily part of the LGBTQIA community.

[Ruth Seid:]
And so, the organization was mostly around that particular issue and then around the materials that were created for the month. I don't know if you remember book troughs, Vincey, but they were troughs of books and they had an oblong sign standing up on top of them and every branch had them and part of all of the promotional stuff for the months was a book trough sign and we also had a pamphlet with a list of books and each one had a logo. And the logo that was designed for LGBTQIA month was a triangle with a part of a Langston Hughes quote.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Oh, I love that.

[Ruth Seid:]
And- it was, it was about a dream deferred and there was a lot of pushback on that. There was a lot of publicity around it, LA Times articles, and unfortunately it ended up as partially, and I- I'm not sure that this is completely. There was a lot more nuance to it, but there were a lot of Black librarians who objected to the use of Langston Hughes, keeping in mind this was thirty something years ago. And so the administration made a decision to remove the quote.

[Ruth Seid:]
They kept the rest of the materials, but they removed the quote from it. There was a lot of anger and agitation on the part of the queer community in LAPL and also the public and they did not back down. Administration would refuse to reinstate the Langston Hughes quote. The years after that, there were other quotes that were used by other people, one by Eleanor Roosevelt. And one of the administration is purported to have said of GLUE that, "Those people are evil." Because we used an Eleanor Roosevelt quote.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
That's disheartening.

[Ruth Seid:]
It was very disheartening and it was not an unusual reaction at that time.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Sure. I want to be more outraged, I feel like, as you tell this story and I also have to just take a step back and recognize that- not that it was okay, but yes it is a much different time.

[Ruth Seid:]
It is. It's amazing what difference thirty years make. We were also very in the midst of many, many, many people dying of AIDs.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Right, I was gonna see this puts us squarely in that time period and that fear and a lot of misinformation thatʻs going around about how that's spread, yes.

[Ruth Seid:]
And I still would have expected better of library people, but once we kind of got- we created this group, we called it GLUE, Gay and Lesbian United Employees. Eventually it went city-wide and it still exists as the city queer committee. But I don't know that there are any library members left on that committee.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
So GLUE continued on under a different name-

[Ruth Seid:]
No, under the same name.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Oh, under the same, ok.

[Ruth Seid:]
It's still called GLUE to this day, as far as I know. It's a committee affiliated with the human rights commission, maybe?

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Oh wow.

[Ruth Seid:]
I don't remember.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
And so that exists-

[Ruth Seid:]
It still exists.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
So here in LAPL, we have our LGBTQIA services committee.

[Ruth Seid:]
Right.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
But then across the city government as a whole, there is still another-

[Ruth Seid:]
GLUE. Yeah.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Because I know that I've seen that there is- I get the invites once a month for the like Out in LA, which they do like a little bar meetup on like a weeknight for all of the LGBT employees. I guess I didn't realize- I don't know why I didn't think that if that exists, there must be a larger group presence, same as the library. I love that it's endured, though, regardless of challenges.

[Ruth Seid:]
Mhm. Right. But there hasn't been a lot of activism until the current committee reinstated when- I can't remember when it happened, but when John was here, he made it clear that anybody could get together and create a committee of like-minded people for furtherance of whatever services towards the communities that they thought the library should have, and so quite a few committees started. Of that group, only the LGBTQIA one still exists and that was probably, what? Ten years ago, maybe?

[Vincey Zalkind:]
That's shocking and impressive to me because I feel like I myself as we are recording this, I've been with LAPL for I wanna say nine years or so and it's- I feel like when I started, the LGBTQIA services committee, it was such a well-oiled and it still is like such a well-oiled machine, I feel like it had been here forever and it's-

[Ruth Seid:]
[crosstalk] Probably.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
[crosstalk] It's wild to me that it was still such a- I mean, obviously like you said, there was GLUE, there was all these other initiatives happening, but it is- Iʻm shocked in such a delightful way that, oh, I joined this committee and it was still in its infancy.

[Ruth Seid:]
[laughter] It was. And John showed up at an early meeting. He made it clear what his priorities were, it was at a time when trans issues were coming forward and one of the things I really wanted to do and a couple of others of us was have required trans workshops. It turned into something that wasn't required that wasn't really a workshop format, it was a presentation and people could watch it on video, which is just not the same. But John made it clear he was really interested in doing the Pride Parade and that's how we started being in the Pride Parade every year.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
So I wanna say it was my third year as an LAPL employee, I did the Pride Parade. That was my first one and there are some really cute photos from that day. And I know that one of them is right at the start of the line, was myself on one side and my partner, my wife, on the other and then right in between us is John waving enthusiastically to the camera and that as a relatively new employee and also someone who was like still relatively new to being able to be like, "Oh, I can be out in this workplace, this is a safe space" like it was something so powerful to be like, oh we're like walking in this massive very well known parade and there is the city librarian, the big boss, standing right like next to me, waving enthusiastically, just-

[Ruth Seid:]
You know, and the power of that escaped me at the time. I was annoyed, I though it was a big publicity thing, which in some ways it is, but it's publicly stating, this is what we support at LAPL and at the time, I was frustrated because that didn't seem to me to be a priority that we should have, it should have been other more serious issues, but the parade it turns out is a lot more of a big serious issue than I realized. And what you just said just really emphasizes that, that doing something out there in public with the city librarian taking the lead can have a really big impact, you know, beyond what I had thought in terms of at the time.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Sure, and I get where you're coming from because I know that over the years I myself have grown a little- I guess complacent in the work that gets done with the LGBTQIA services committee because a lot of it are just small things that happen behind the scenes and I get so comfortable with how accepting the city is and how forward moving the city is with these things.

[Ruth Seid:]
Right.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Then we do programs like we just- as you were talking about trans issues- not to toot my own horn as we talk about this, but I just did a program with the author Alo Johnston about his book Am I Trans Enough? and we talked for an hour on the library's youtube page just about what do you do when you are questioning your gender and it's like, oh right. We take a lot of small steps in making, you know, the behind the scenes and making the library such a safe place and bringing forth these values, but then we still take these big swings once in a while and it really- it's really affirming, both as an employee of this system but also as someone who sees as we're recording this, just kind of unfortunately how it is outside of our LAPL bubble.

[Ruth Seid:]
I have found it really heartening when we started this new group, it started first- David Hagopian was one of the people who said, "Let's do this group." And he got us together and he led it for a while and people joined and there are people who I would- I didn't- I have no idea if they are part of the queer community, but we had a lot of people who joined who I have no reason to think are or aren't, and seeing a really broad representation, a representation that is broad in terms of age, in terms of ethnicity, and gender and it's just such a broadening of the work that's being done and bringing so many more perspectives in and so many more ideas and yet, we're all really united around certain issues and it's just really heartening to see new people come in, both- especially, you think, for a while there, things seemed okay and there's always more work to do, but you're right, we got a little bit complacent.

[Ruth Seid:]
And having this group start up again, or start up fresh like ten years ago, kind of said, no, we did take some big steps back then, but there's still a lot more to do. And seeing- and it's in some ways more subtle. It's not- I mean, obviously outside this system there are some really big issues that are not subtle at all.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Right.

[Ruth Seid:]
The homophobia, the transphobia going on. The attempt to remove books from libraries that discuss any- that have any representation at all and not just of queer issues, but representation of civil rights, representation of- it's horrifying and here in LA, we kind of thought, "Alright, we're okay." And in many ways we are, but there is still so much more to do and seeing people take up the mantle from way back after kind of a big gap in some ways.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Right.

[Ruth Seid:]
Now that there are more challenges, especially.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
And I know that we are talking about the LGBTQIA services committee, but what you were talking about too with regards to people protesting books and diversity across the board, I don't know how much of it reaches out into our communities and to our public, but I know that especially around the time that like Black Lives Matter protests were happening and everything-

[Ruth Seid:]
Mhm.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
The library started our REAB and forgive me for forgetting exactly what the acronym stands for, but there are now as much as we are the LGBTQIA services committee, our library has really taken a step forward to make sure that we have representation groups like this across the board.

[Ruth Seid:]
Exactly.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
That each of these, you know, heritage months that we have, there are teams of employee volunteers across the system really pushing for it, which is something I don't know if I hear about in other library systems and it could be happening, like I said I know that a lot of the work we do is kind of silent and behind the scenes and working with like admin and the public doesn't always see that.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
No matter how you identify, no matter what your background is, there is work you can do, there is ways to volunteer and be a part of it which is so impressive and it is really special to me because I recognize that a lot of that work goes on behind the scenes and it's not always seen by the public other than the end results of it, like having the Juneteenth Celebration and things like that.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
As someone who was an area manager and who has worked in so many different branches for us, do you have any suggestions, anything that you would recommend to a  librarian who might be listening to this who wants to start these kind of initiatives within their own system?

[Ruth Seid:]
It's really hard for me to say, "Go do it" because not everybody has the same kind of job protections that we have here in LA.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Right.

[Ruth Seid:]
Not everybody has the support of community surrounding them the way we do. We are fortunate. And partly because we live in a community that is in general pretty progressive and supportive of queer rights, but also because we have a unionized workplace that has job protections, has civil services protections, and not everybody has that and so it would be a little presumptuous of me to say, "Just go do it" you know, "Get together and do it." Because people have their lives and their jobs on the line in some places.

[Ruth Seid:]
And so I would say at least get together among yourselves, I think that's what happened first is that we found each other. The first thing to do is at least learn who each other are, talk about your issues, and then find out what you can do- what risks you're willing to take, and what you hope to gain. But I think just- even getting together to know each other is an important first step, and then making a decision about where you're gonna take it. Talk about what your goals are. But like I said, it's hard for me to make recommendations to people who are under very different circumstances.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Sure, and I hear that. And I think, though, that even just the recommendation of finding your people within your branch, within your system, is still a powerful solution because I think that there is- how do I put this? I do feel like that's the biggest first step, is being able to have that bravery to step forward and to just say, "Hey, I think we have something in common" you know, and even if it's just gathering around like once a week for ten minutes around the water cooler to just talk and just say "Hey, do you think we should try and push to get these books we've been seeing, you know, more copies in our library?" I think that you really, though, gave good advice, that it's just- it's about gathering, it's about creating a union. Because there is power in a union.

[Ruth Seid:]
Yes. [laughter]

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Whether it's us as city employees or just the union of diverse individuals coming together for their shared goal. And with all of that, how do you envision the future of LGBTQIA services at the library in all of this tumultuous times and just changing societal dynamics?

[Ruth Seid:]
That's a really hard question for me. I'm not particularly imaginative, so you know, when you say how do you imagine? I don't know. I know that there are things that we should be doing, but what that will turn into, I couldn't say. There are things- I would never have imagined how things are today compared to thirty years ago. It's what I would maybe have hoped for these changes, but I don't know that I can picture what it would be like. That said-

[Vincey Zalkind:]
That's fair, it's hard to kind of-

[Ruth Seid:]
[laughter]

[Vincey Zalkind:]
How fast everything is changing, it's hard to think of something past tomorrow. At least for myself.

[Ruth Seid:]
Right, yeah. On the other hand, you know, I've seen the effects that some of our services and displays and programming have had. I've seen people, like I said, come to that- or like you said, come to that drag queen story time and there were people from all over the community, there were young people and older people and people of many different communities and ethnicities that show up at these story times and enjoy them and normalize queerness, normalize drag, normalize trans issues, and I would hope that the more we do, the more that happens.

[Ruth Seid:]
Unfortunately, we see so much going on that is opposing the normalization of queerness, that- and it's getting worse. And I would only hope that the library continues to do the work towards saying, "No. We have a right to be here, we have a right to live our lives and be part of this community."

[Vincey Zalkind:]
I think that that is- yes, I think that that is incredibly true and I hope that- I agree with you, I hope that our system continues to put its foot down and say, "No, this is what's happening." I know that we have been very lucky when it comes to things like challenging books and such, we have such a robust system ahead of us- backing us, my apologies.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
And not everyone gets that, I know that there are small townships where, you know, the library system is four people and a board outside of it and as, again, I want to pick your brain on this because you were an area manager, do you have any advice for others when it comes to getting challenged books, whether it's for queer and trans issues, or other- you know, there's a whole lot of challenges that are popping up.

[Ruth Seid:]
Right. You know, again, the system that I know the best is LAPL where we have a very robust response to any challenges. We have a system in place for people to request reconsideration of materials and we have people in place to respond to those requests for reconsideration. I have never heard of a single time when an item has been removed. Now, that doesn't mean there haven't been, but I haven't heard of any times when somebody has challenged an item and it's been removed. There are times when, for instance, children's services has realized that certain books, while they belong at Central Library, no longer belong in branches and community libraries. Especially some older children's books that are clearly racist or colonialist.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Sure, I know that at a branch I worked at, the only time we've ever had a challenged book successfully removed was due to some unfortunate wording in a children's like board book. And we just-

[Ruth Seid:]
Oh.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Yeah, and it wasn't anything bad, but it was like that's- it's fair that we have moved that away.

[Ruth Seid:]
Mhm.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
That's why I was wanting to ask you because I can't think of a time I've seen a book be challenged here, which is an impressive thing. I also don't know if I've ever seen even a book get re- I've seen librarians re-catalogue something-

[Ruth Seid:]
[crosstalk] Oh, there have-

[Vincey Zalkind:]
[crosstalk] -from like children's to YA, but.

[Ruth Seid:]
Yes, that has happened and like I said, some of the children's books for an example, is Little Black Sambo, you'll no longer find it at branches.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Which, that's absolutely fine.

[Ruth Seid:]
Thank goodness. Yeah.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
That's fine.

[Ruth Seid:]
But we keep copies at Central Library because it's a historical collection and people studying issues of race in children's books come to the Central Library Children's Department, look at their collection, but I have never seen something that's been challenged just flat out removed because somebody thinks it's offensive. There was one situation, again, thirty years ago, where one of the books that they- that GLUE- I think I mentioned that, each month there were fifty books sent to each branch as part of collection development, to broaden collection development in the branches.

[Ruth Seid:]
And on the list of LGBTQIA books was a book of photographs of interracial couples. And there were some- and they were, the photographs, some of them were suggestive to some people, and there were some branches where the supervisors just took- where the senior librarian just decided they didn't want that book in their collection and they withdrew them as soon as they got them. And administration sort of half-heartedly said, "Yeah, don't do that." And again, different time, but it was also before or just at the beginning of when we had the online catalog. And so what people did in their branches didn't necessarily get reflected anywhere that people could see. We didn't have the online system, every branch had their own catalog, paper, you know card catalog, and so it was a little harder to monitor that.

[Ruth Seid:]
Once we got CARL, the online catalog, it was a little easier to monitor when people were just taking certain books out, but I've never seen administration actually remove something. And so your original question was, what advice would I give to people in other systems where there are challenges, and I think your best bet is to pull in as much as possible, ALA, Freedom to Read Foundation, get the support you can from outside your system, especially if you're not getting it from within the system. If you're a small system, use those resources to help you fight the kind of censorship that is really growing.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
And with that, with the response to challenges and how other library workers can find resources and things, what steps would you give a regular listener to this podcast, to take to support the library's mission of fostering diversity and understanding? What can a regular person do to help us when those kinds of challenges occur and when people try to push back on it in libraries?

[Ruth Seid:]
I think show up where you can. Show up at meetings where the issues are being discussed, use- there are a lot of online resources to find ways to challenge the challenges, to respond to the challenges. Show up at the boarding meetings, show up at the programs that are being challenged.

[Ruth Seid:]
I know even fairly recently, there was another drag queen story time that had some people show up to protest. Some people from the community came also to oppose those challenges, to oppose the protesters, and I know that some people were not happy that that went on, but I think it's great that the public comes and counter protests. And says, "No. You guys are wrong, this is a perfectly acceptable thing." So I think showing up, showing up, being prepared with statements as needed, is the best thing that the public can do. Sometimes not everybody can do that, but showing up, you're right, seeing that face there, seeing people who are showing up and saying, "No, this is wrong." Even if they can't articulate well the reasons why they believe that.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
I mean and even getting a little- I don't know about you, but I know too that even getting like a little note from a patron that just thanks us for having certain books and for helping them, even little notes of encouragement are always so sweet and we are very blessed that here in LA, knock on wood, people have been really supportive, which is sweet, and I hope that other communities are able to find that same strength and that same love that we are afforded here.

[Ruth Seid:]
Yeah. I agree.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Now I'm very emotional about this.

[Ruth Seid:]
[laughter]

[Vincey Zalkind:]
I think this has been such a wonderful conversation and I really appreciate you taking the time to be here and to give us such a very illuminating look at the history of the LGBT services committee and just the way that this has existed for such a long time. And I'm really grateful that we're gonna be a part of these archives and we have this. How do you think that technology and digital content distribution are helping influence the way that we in the library engage with our LGBTQIA community? I know we've talked that we have some of our programs recorded and sometimes they livestream.

[Ruth Seid:]
Do we have statistics on how many people we're reaching with those recorded programs?

[Vincey Zalkind:]
That's a very good question because I know that I love to peak in now and then at our youtube page and see like what the view counts are on everything, but I- you know, that is a very good question for people above me, but I- I know I asked you, but personally I think that our pivot to having such robust online programming and having hybrid, virtual, and in person programming has really helped. Did you ever get a sense in any of your branches that as, you know, toward the end of your time there, that having this accessibility helped?

[Ruth Seid:]
Well, for specifically for queer programming, no. I mean programming- online programming in general, of course, we really started emphasizing it when COVID started in 2020 and we saw that there were people from all over the world attending our programs and some of the time there were three people, but sometimes there were two hundred attending programs that were online and then, now creating some of these programs to be recorded and available just opens it up for more people.

[Ruth Seid:]
But I really don't have a sense of how our queer programming has reached people. That's one of the things as- one of the things that has happened in the last ten fifteen years is a real change to- in how programming has been coordinated in the library system. And it's a good thing. The whole E&L [ENGAGEMENT AND LEARNING] division, you know, it's pretty brand new. It's maybe- at least it feels that way to me because there was no such thing before and there was children's services that kind of coordinated children's programming and YA services that kind of coordinated YA programming, and adult services that kind of coordinated adult programming.

[Ruth Seid:]
But the E&L division really has created a much stronger oversight, but also stronger opportunity for more programming that's not just a story time in the branch or a health program in the branch, or a Teen Council, but systemwide programming that both has programs in person and a lot of online work. And that to me has really- is the big change, is the overall way that we have coordinated the programming in this system through the E&L division. And I think in general- and it's left lots of creativity for the branches to do their own programming that fits their communities, but it's given them a lot more resources to do it. And I think that's the really big effect, is- comes from having this office that now coordinates and supports programming in the library.

[Ruth Seid:]
And that's for all kinds of programming, I really can't- you know, from my position, I actually didn't have a huge amount of contact with the public in the last twenty years. And so I really don't have a feel for what's happening among the public, based on like personal contact with them. And that's why I asked, how many- you know, do we have statistics? That's how, in my position, I looked at issues, was "Ok, do you wanna spend this much time on something that's reaching four people?" And maybe you do. You know, if it's an important program, if it's something that those four people really needed, yeah, maybe you do.

[Ruth Seid:]
But I never quite had that sort of personal feel for the effect of the programming, it was more of a statistical look at things. Between the LGBTQIA services committee and John's leadership in the area, I really- I have a real feeling of hope and I have since the LGBTQIA service committee started, seeing so many new people becoming active in the library system on queer issues. And not just to the committee, but even to library administration, PR. It's not always a resounding yes, but more often than not.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Right. And having all these different groups helps, that when you bring up whether it's LGBT services committee, whether it's any one of our other diversity groups, it also helps that even if you don't get that resounding, enthusiastic yes, there is still a whole committee thatʻs gonna help you figure out like, oh maybe this program doesn't work in this regard, but we can retool it and we can do this, we can figure out how to get it going.

[Ruth Seid:]
Or, maybe we can challenge the no.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Yeah, that too. There is- weʻre very lucky that we have such wonderful people to work with and we have these communities here in our library.

[Ruth Seid:]
Yes. I agree.

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure having you and I really-

[upbeat music fades in]

[Vincey Zalkind:]
I can't thank you enough, this has been such a wonderful conversation.

[Ruth Seid:]
Thank you, Vincey, and thank you for inviting me to this. It's been a pleasure.

[swelling upbeat music]

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