Rainbow Archives: John Szabo - Transcript | Los Angeles Public Library

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[upbeat dance music]

[Vincey Zalkind:]
Hello, this is Vincey Zalkind, and you're listening to Rainbow Archives, a podcast tracing the history of LGBTQIA services at the Los Angeles Public Library. Today, you'll be hearing from Librarian Edwin Rodarte in conversation with City Librarian John Szabo.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
Welcome to Rainbow Archives, presented by the Los Angeles Public Library. In this podcast, we explore the remarkable journey of how the LA Public Library has championed services for the LGBTQIA community. Join us as we uncover the behind-the-scenes stories of our dedicated staff who have been at the forefront of creating a more inclusive and welcoming space for all.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
My name is Edwin Rodarte and I am the co-chair for the LGBTQIA Services committee here at the Los Angeles Public Library.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
Today, we have a special guest joining us, none other than City Librarian John Szabo. He’ll be sharing insights into the library’s commitments to serving the LGBTQIA community and shedding light on the extraordinary efforts of our staff in making this vision a reality.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
Thank you for being here, John.

[John Szabo:]
Hi, Edwin, it's great to be here.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
It's great to have you. So to kick things off, could you share with our listeners how the LA Public Library first embarked on this journey of providing services tailored to the LGBTQIA community? What was the initial inspiration?

[John Szabo:]
Well, I think our first very intentional effort goes back eleven years or so- ten/eleven years- when I frankly really wanted the library to have a bigger presence. I wanted the library to have a louder voice to the LGBTQIA committee. I wanted the library very intentionally to say "We are here for you" and that, since, has taken many forms, but I think initially it was, I really wanted the LA Public Library to be in the Pride Parade. [laughter]

[John Szabo:]
And so, bringing staff together to do that and to say, "We are here for you" by being in the parade was a first step and the way in which the LGBTQIA services committee has become stronger, has blossomed, has taken the opportunity to say, "Oh, we can make a difference in this area of the library, we can make a difference in this public facing area, we can make a difference in this behind the scenes area" has just really frankly wowed me and made me proud and has been really exciting to see.

[John Szabo:]
So, I think that was the sort of the initial spark of the really formal, "We are here, we have a name, we have a brand, and we're here for you" effort, but I will say that it's not just been in the last eleven years. I think the library over decades has done things to say, "We are here for this community" and while, in decades past, I and I'm sure you and others, wish that were a bigger, bolder effort, I'm still proud of that work and there are librarians and library staff who we may never know their efforts, who made decisions about putting things in collections, who greeted staff- who greeted the public in ways, to let them know we wanna be here for you, and let me help you find information that you need, let me help you find stories that will validate you and make you feel good and so I love thinking back to that and I imagine that happened decades and decades and decades ago. And I'm proud of that here at the LA Public Library, but I'm also proud of that as a librarian.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
Great. No, thank you for that because what you're bringing to point, it's true, right. Like we don't know the stories of these staff members that made a difference in somebody's life and so it's interesting to think about. It's not something that, you know, those names may not reach the day of light, it's just something that they did in their past, so thank you for, you know, bringing that to light but also, you know, we're doing this episode also to sort of like document some of the stories of our staff that have been at the forefront and that are making a difference.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
You mentioned a little bit about the LGBTQIA services committee, so just to give a little bit of background context to people listening [laughs] that's essentially a committee that is created of staff members here at LA Public Library that either identify or are allies for the LGBTQ community and so that's our group of staff members and we're happy to serve Angelenos.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
How has the library's approach to inclusion and representation evolved over the years?

[John Szabo:]
I think it's evolved dramatically, you know I'm very proud of the values of libraries and librarianship and I think those have always been strong, I think though over the history of public libraries, certainly in our nation and certainly with the LA Public Library, our efforts toward inclusion and representation are growing and getting better all of the time.

[John Szabo:]
I think it requires relentless focus and attention and asking questions about who are we not serving, and that's not just who are we not serving with collections and programs, but who's not at the table, who are we not doing a good job of recruiting. Are we fully representative of the communities that we serve? And are we communicating in ways and through channels that reach all of the diverse audiences within our city?

[John Szabo:]
I think that how we think about inclusion and representation from a staffing perspective has evolved. I think how we think about the importance of cultural competency broadly and that includes cultural competency around the LGBT community is really important. And I think also just in libraries and certainly at LA Public Library, our awareness of the fact that the last hundred plus years of publishing content, despite our efforts to look at all of that and to add- and at LA Public Library, we're fortunate, we're a big library system, we're able to buy a lot, add a lot to put on our shelves- that that content that is available to us to go purchase, is not and has not been representative of all of the communities that we have. And if we do not have a representative staff, the likelihood of that content making its way and becoming accessible to our communities is not as great.

[John Szabo:]
So I think that speaks to the importance of representation on staff, voices at the table, but also thinking about how we as a big public library system can leverage that to make an impact on what gets published and that's really important in the, you know, LGBTQIA space because while we've seen a lot of progress in recent years, you know, the stories have not been told to the degree that we would want through formally published material, which is why I think libraries have to look at zines, and look at self published material in order to get those stories and that content on our shelves and through our digital avenues. And I think this issue of availability and access is really important, particularly important with the LGBTQ community because our stories are so ephemeral and our stories have been told through, you know, publications that have not been part of sort of the formal established traditional publishing ecosystem. And so the work of ONE Archives, the work of public libraries and other collecting and memory institutions, I think is so important to make certain that we are gathering those stories and capturing them.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
Let me ask you a little bit more about some of the work that has been happening here at LA Public Library and maybe those services that you just touched upon. How would you describe, like, the impact that these services are having on our community here in Los Angeles, specifically?

[John Szabo:]
They're life changing. And, you know, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that in some cases, they're life saving. And that's why I feel so passionate about these services and making certain that the library is saying, "You are welcome here" and that we're doing that not just with a sign on the door, but with who our staff are, with the kinds of public programming that we do, whether it's in branch libraries, whether it's how we collect here at Central Library, Special Collections, all of those things.

[John Szabo:]
I think that all of those services send a message and I think it has a big, big impact. I think that the fact that this library celebrates, proclaims, recognizes the community, is hugely important and we can't forget that one staff member with one message of welcome, a Young Adult Librarian saying, "We're here for you, be part of the library, volunteer here," one book on a shelf can make a difference.

[John Szabo:]
I know I remember being a teenager and seeing a single book on a shelf in a library and that sent a message to me not only about me being gay, but it sent a message that, wow, this institution that has this big sign in front of it, that's bricks and mortar, where these people over here work behind the desk, somewhere someone made the decision to buy that book and put it on that shelf. And to me, that was a big deal, that was a bold thing, and it said something about that building, those people, this institution, that in the world, that that could exist. And while that was some time ago, I still think those moments happen for young people, for adults, and I think that's life changing, and that's life saving.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
I totally agree with you, you know, I had the same experience of walking into a library, you know, my first book that I read- not necessarily my first book, but one of the first books that I read, was LGBT and I found it at a public library space. And so, you know, just knowing that that was available to me at that age, at that time, sort of like validated my identity and so, you know, it made me know that there were other people out there like me. And at this point, you know, this was early 2000s, so there wasn't a lot of books and material to choose from, but you know, I remember, you know, Rainbow Boys or Geography Club or some of these other titles that are- you know, that were published during those times that really spoke to me.

[John Szabo:]
Yeah. And it's a reminder that we have allies out there, too, that have helped build these collections and said these things and that our allies are so important.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
Most definitely. Let me ask you if you can maybe recall a particular or memorable event or initiative that emphasized the library's commitment to diversity?

[John Szabo:]
They're happening every day. You know, I'm thinking of the upcoming Los Angeles Libros Festival. Something you know a few things about. And the message that that sends is- you know, an example of the library's commitment to diversity.

[John Szabo:]
I think about the Lunar New Year Celebration, I think about our recent June Jubilee and the celebration of Black excellence and why that is wonderful as a deliverable of the library and an experience that people can have in the library. And that it opens our doors and opens people's eyes to what we do and who we are and what we collect. But also what it says about the institution.

[John Szabo:]
I think about the Pride Parade and not just the Pride Parade, but specific programs that happen in branch libraries, content that we- a blog post about LGBT history in Los Angeles, a collection that we might acquire, and the stories that that tells and the evidence of that as the library's commitment to diversity. I think about, you know- when we think about the Pride Parade, we think about swag.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
Oh, totally. [laughter]

[John Szabo:]
All of that. And I am so proud that this institution not only distributes it, but that we put our brand on it and I think that's powerful. I think that when we walk down the street, or when we at a program, hand over, you know, the library's brand with the rainbow on it and LGBTQIA services on it. I just think that is really important as an example of that commitment. And that we are bold about it, that we are not- we don't just stick our toe in the water-

[John Szabo:]
[crosstalk] -we dive in-

[Edwin Rodarte:]
[crosstalk] -yeah, we aren't shy. [laughter]

[John Szabo:]
[crosstalk] -head first. And I think people recognize that and appreciate that. And that also says something about who we are and I hope that also extends to making us a more attractive employer for people that might want to come work for the library and say- you know, it's not just about having books on this subject matter and that tells this story and speaks to you and has your voice on the shelf, but it's also- it's who we are, working over here at the library, so come on.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
And we're- I mean, I'm a testament of that, right, like I've found so much support here in the staff members and the coworkers as well. And I'll tell you, like you know, being also part of that group that has gone to outreach events to do, like, the giveaways for the swag- Yeah, people love us. [laughter]

[John Szabo:]
Yeah.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
So, definitely.

[John Szabo:]
And I think that's part of being a good library system, too, you know.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
Yes.

[John Szabo:]
A lot of people might see that as sort of icing on the cake, a little extra something we do if we have a little extra something over here. I think it's core. I think, you know, I think that way about all of our communications channels, but if the good people of LA are gonna invest in a library system, a public library system that is intended to serve everybody, all of our diverse communities, and be inclusive, part of our responsibilities of being a good library system is to communicate effectively, in a culturally competent way, with all of our communities and reach all of our communities, so I consider that sort of the bones and flesh of the library, not just this icing or nice to do thing.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
John, you talked a little bit about being in the Pride Parade and how much that was sort of like, one of the goals that you wanted the public library to have, and- what has been, maybe, one of your memories out of this parade experience? We've participated quite a few years at this point.

[John Szabo:]
Oh, my goodness. Every parade has been wonderful, it honestly- each parade is- I, with all of our staff and some family members of staff, march down the street, it just fills my heart. And one big takeaway that I love is how much love we receive and how amazed people are that our presence in the parade is so big- which I love, of course. But also, just as we march down that parade, that when people see the library and they see our sign out in front and our book bikes and our vehicle and all of our rainbows and staff going out to the crowd and greeting them and giving them swag and holding up our big library card, and all of that. Just the noise and the look on people's faces that, "Oh my gosh, the library is here." And I think, at this point, people are expecting the library to be there. It's just so wonderful to receive that love and that people are so thrilled that their public library is in the Pride Parade. And it fills my heart with joy because of- certainly, receiving that love is wonderful, but also that they're getting that recognition, that our library- our public library- our public, tax supported institution in LA is shouting out, not in a little bitty way with a little bitty sign and two people. Not that there's anything wrong with-

[laughter]

[John Szabo:]
-that are that small, but that we're shouting out in a big way, "We're here for you." And they see the diversity of our staff with that group, just is so incredible. And I also really enjoy wearing the rainbow sash, too, so I mean, that's fun. [laughter]

[Edwin Rodarte:]
Yeah, can't miss it. It's great. Yeah, for me, I think for my experience with the Pride Parade has been participating for the first time in what we call Parade Prancers which is, you know, the book cart drill team- [laughter]

[John Szabo:]
Right, yes.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
-that we have and we just do, like, little showcases for people and they love it, so the people are very supportive and they always cheer us on, which is amazing. And you gotta love our tagline, too, you know, "What's your queery?" [laughter]

[John Szabo:]
Absolutely. Absolutely, people love that and we're mighty popular in the parade.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
I know we've been talking a little bit more about like, you know, the great things and the positive things that are happening at our libraries and so I wanted to maybe move into a different side of the picture, right. So I know that libraries have been facing a lot of- not just libraries-

[John Szabo:]
Attacks?

[Edwin Rodarte:]
Yeah. Attacks. Yeah, the libraries have been facing a lot of attacks most recently. Can you tell us maybe about challenges that the LGBTQIA services at the library have faced in terms of acceptance or understanding?

[John Szabo:]
Well, I think we have a tremendous amount of support here in Los Angeles and I'm- you know, don't feel that our provision of these services is threatened. I do think that here in Los Angeles, we do need to be worried about it and we do need to pay close attention to it because my worry is that this issue across the country is, one, first and foremost, going to affect our ability nationally to be there for and provide content and programming in an equitable way for all communities.

[John Szabo:]
But also, that it's going to affect the brand of public libraries, particularly. And we are so fortunate in public library land to enjoy- you know, decades and decades and decades of support, we are one of the most trusted institutions in this country and we are used by everyone. We're used by people on the left and the right, wealthy folks use libraries, the poorest in our communities use libraries and that's a beautiful, beautiful thing. And I worry that these attacks on libraries, while they happen in some areas more than others, that it's growing and that it is going to affect a broad level of support for libraries, nationally, so that really concerns me. And certainly, messages of- in the press, of- Oh, this work or by putting a book that tells the story of a trans person that's on the shelf, is somehow an in your face thing or pushing something, is really ridiculous and obscene. And scratches against the value of the library to be there and to have all voices represented on our shelves, both our virtual shelves and our physical shelves, so it does concern me. And I think the LA Public Library has a responsibility to speak up and speak out on this and to draw attention to it.

[John Szabo:]
I mean, I have a dear friend who is a public library director in Texas who's no longer a director of that library, you know, because a committee was formed to review everything that the library wanted to put on its shelves, which is, you know, a slap in the face certainly of the professionalism of libraries, but also an effort to say that the public library really isn't there for everyone. So I think it's really important that we pay attention to these issues nationally. And I also think it's so important for the public and everyone to know that in libraries, all of us in libraries, and that absolutely includes LGBTQIA staff in libraries, we care about the public and we wouldn't do anything to harm, you know, young people or to harm anyone. And that we give a great deal of care in deciding about programs and things that we offer and that we also support parents in their ability to be with their children and to make the best decisions for their families and kids as they make use of the library.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
No, thank you for that. I think it's great to hear your opinion on this, it's a topic that has been discussed, I think, in a lot of other spaces and so, hearing the voice from a director is kind of like nice to understand, I guess, what's happening, also because you also have a different viewpoint of the topic. Now, for other institutions that are basically- maybe going through similar situations or maybe they are interested in having spaces that are more inclusive for their staff and for their patrons, what advice do you have for those other institutions or individuals aiming to create safe spaces for these communities?

[John Szabo:]
I think a lot of it is how the library communicates it and explains the why. Why we create these safe spaces, why we have programming on these subjects, why we collect content in all of its forms that represents the diversity of the communities we serve and so it requires the library to go back to values and to talk about those values and that we are representative of everybody and sometimes that means that we collect things that some people don't like. And I guarantee you, there are many, many things on the shelves of LA Public Library that I find offensive, that disturb me, that I don't want to read. And that's okay. I will defend those things being on that shelf for the person that does want to come in and read them and look at them, so I think it's talking about the why and talking about our values and reminding people of the importance of telling these stories and why it's important.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Looking ahead, what's the vision for the future of maybe LGBTQIA services here at the library? Or how do you see these services continuing to evolve to meet the changing needs of our diverse community?

[John Szabo:]
Well, if the artist Christo were still alive- you remember Christo, the artist that had the flags in Central Park, I think, in New York, and who wrapped buildings. If he were still alive, one idea might be to wrap the entire Central Library in rainbow fabric, how cool would that be?

[Edwin Rodarte:]
That would be amazing.

[John Szabo:]
That would send a message.

[Edwin Rodate:]
[laughter]

[John Szabo:]
I'd love that photograph of the entire building wrapped in fabric, but I think that- you know, thinking about the future, I think it's continuing our commitment, it's thinking about how we recruit staff, I think it's- and also, I think, the area- when we talk about cultural competency, I think there's a real need for that in the LGBTQIA area. I think that there's a lot of learning to do and I think, you know, people being out has always been a good thing, I think it's more important than ever across the entire LGBTQIA spectrum and when people are out and people tell their stories and there are environments where people feel comfortable being themselves and being out, I think that society and our libraries and everything is going to be better, so I think that's hugely important.

[John Szabo:]
I think, you know, we at LA Public Library look at our special collections and we have special collections that fabulous librarians and staff here at the LA Public Library over years have been collecting. I think historically those collections do not represent our diverse community, for all sorts of reasons. I think we've made some very intentional efforts to have the collections be more-so and all- and I think in the LGBTQIA space, I see great opportunity there and we're so lucky in LA to have the ONE Archives and other institutions that do that collecting and I think at LA Public Library, it's thinking about what is our role and what is our place in that collecting community.

[John Szabo:]
And I feel real passionate about that, for all marginalized communities because this history, you know, whether it's the African American community and Civil Rights, you know, this Library Director in Atlanta had thought a lot about that, but to make certain that this history that is told not always in published books, but in papers and in photographs and in all sorts of material, that it's not lost and that we are there to say, "Yes, we will take it and preserve it" and- you know, when a self-published book about the first African American fire fighter in Philadelphia, which we acquired for the LA Public Library and are the only library, I think, that has it. When we say yes to that, we're saying that story of that person is going to be preserved for all time and so when I think about special collections, that's what I want, is for the library to be in a place to be able to say yes to preserve that history and to work very collaboratively with other institutions to make certain that as we digitize it and that material is available for exhibition and research and the sixth graders' history fair project as well, when they come in.

[John Szabo:]
I think staff training, and also looking at new ways in which the LGBTQIA services committee can have an impact on library services and I've been very amazed and wowed by the ways in which the committee has looked through that lens at all of our services and has stepped into different arenas to make the library a better place, so I think just really affirming our commitment and doing all of those things.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
Most definitely. And I can tell you for first-hand experience that I've benefited from some of those things, you know, especially our staff training, you know, which is mandatory for our staff and which changes every year. You know, there's always new terminology, there's always new things to learn, and so it's nice to keep up with the times on that aspect as well. Asking for maybe- for our listeners, what steps can listeners take to support the library's mission of fostering diversity and understanding in their own communities?

[John Szabo:]
I think supporting libraries broadly, supporting public libraries, I- whenever I'm speaking to any audience about the library and the LA Public Library, I always end with asking them to spread the word. Let someone know that the library is a welcoming space for immigrant communities, let people know that what you learned today that you didn't know and inevitably someone learns something that they had no idea that the library was doing. They learn about the Octavia Lab, which we're in right now and how amazing it is. They learn that we have Young Adult Librarians throughout the system, they learn that we do all sorts of incredible, unique things and that we impact the community in ways that they had no idea, so.

[John Szabo:]
It is still so important to the library that more people know about what the library- I think about that all the time, I think about it morning, noon, and night. How we can be relentlessly focused on the message of the library in communicating with people because we can never assume that people know how dynamic and relevant the public library is, and we are more relevant than ever to our communities, we are more dynamic than ever, and we're having a bigger impact on the biggest issues that our city faces. And that's true not just in big old Los Angeles with the great big Los Angeles Public Library, which is so incredible, but it's also true in rural libraries, in medium size libraries in cities and towns all across the country.

[John Szabo:]
You know, people who work in libraries are just magical and they are doing really, really important work and so I would just ask that people, you know, really spread that word in their own circle and support libraries whether it's volunteering, whether it's donating, whether it's speaking up on behalf of libraries. And letting people know that these values that libraries have of inclusion and diversity and that we are committed to representing all voices. And what's so amazing is that libraries are doing all of this incredible work with, you know, digital learning spaces like the Octavia Lab, that we're doing exhibitions, that we're super creative and innovative with children's programming and the STEM topics and all, but that we also do all of those things that they remember about their grandparents' library, all of those warm fuzzy things with lap sit story time and books on the shelf and the wonderful happenstance of finding a book that you weren't looking for but that you think is incredible on a shelf, whether at Central Library or at seventy-two branches, that those incredible experiences also happen at the LA Public Library.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
And are still happening.

[John Szabo:]
They are.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
[laughter]

[John Szabo:]
Right now, as we sit here.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
It's funny because as we're sitting here in this Octavia Lab recording this, we have a group of students just behind us. [laughter] You know, being students.

[John Szabo:]
And we can hear the rumble of the students and look out in the ways in which they're interacting with all of the super cool technology that we have in Octavia Lab. I think that's awesome, that's what the public library is about, so.

[Edwin Rodarte:]
I agree, I couldn't be- well, I'm a hundred percent with you there. So, I think that's a great place to end this, so-

[upbeat music fades in]

[Edwin Rodarte:]
-thank you, John, for sharing your insights and experiences with us today. It's truly inspiring to hear how the LA Public Library has not only embraced inclusivity but continues to champion it. We look forward to the library's ongoing journey in serving our diverse and vibrant community. Thank you again.

[John Szabo:]
Thanks so much, Edwin, I really enjoyed it.

[swelling upbeat music]

[music fades out]