Dave Klecha was born in Detroit and studied Russian and history in college. He then joined the U.S. Marine Corps Reserves. In addition to writing, Dave engages in a number of other creative pursuits, including acting, set-building, scriptwriting, and extreme amateur landscaping. His fiction has appeared in the Subterranean Press Magazine, Clarkesworld, and various anthologies. Klecha lives in Rochester, Michigan.
Tobias S. Buckell is a New York Times bestselling writer and World Fantasy Award winner. He was born in the Caribbean, grew up in Grenada, and has lived in the British and U.S. Virgin Islands. He is the author of the popular Xenowealth series (Crystal Rain), along with other standalone novels and almost one hundred stories. His works have been translated into twenty different languages. Buckell has also been nominated for the Hugo, Nebula, and World Fantasy Awards, and the Astounding Award for Best New Science Fiction Author. Buckell lives in Bluffton, Ohio.
Their latest collaboration is The Runes of Engagement and they recently talked about it with Daryl Maxwell for the LAPL Blog.
In your acknowledgements, you explain that The Runes of Engagement started as a short story in John Joseph Adams' 2015 anthology Operation Arcana. What drew you back to explore this world and characters further and expand it into a novel?
Dave: Well, it was just a lot of fun. We had dozens of little bits we wanted to do around the way the fantasyland met or missed the Marines' expectations based on their various approaches to fantasy literature, movies, and games. The traditional arcs of fantasy stories in every medium made it easy to hang the bits on a novel-length plot. But what drew us back was how much fun it was, how much fun we were having with it.
Tobias: And on top of that, I really like bouncing ideas off Dave; we've been having these awesomely intense long late-night writer chats over the years. Working together on a project was just taking that vibe and bringing it over into the creative process.
How did the novel evolve and change as you wrote and revised it? Are there any characters or scenes lost in the process that you wish had made it to the published version?
Dave: Honestly, we didn't go through too many iterations. I think we came up with a couple of fantasy archetype characters that didn't make it into the first draft, and there was a tavern scene that we dropped in favor of a much stronger middle. But overall, the final version bears a really strong resemblance to our original outline.
Tobias: Surprisingly so, yeah. We did a lot of work upfront in that outline; it was just the middle that needed some tightening up. There was a strong sense of what situations we wanted to explore already, so not much ended up cut in terms of set pieces, but we did polish this at least ten times to get it like a well-trimmed ship at sea
Confronting Marines with the magic and monsters of fantasy and role-playing games is genius! Did you need to do a bit of research into the military, Marines specifically, to write The Runes of Engagement?
Dave: Well, I guess you could call it research, but I served in the Marines as a Reservist for six years. In fact, I did my basic training in Southern California at MCRD San Diego and Camp Pendleton. That was 25 years ago now, though, so there was a little bit of brushing up I had to do on some of the latest developments, trying to make sure our Marines would be recognizable to those currently serving. But that was also part of the fun of the collaboration, bringing together a lot of things both of us already had to hand in our minds, between my military experience and both of us being lifelong fans of fantasy games and, literature and movies.
Tobias: I never served, but grew up in a war-time environ as a civilian but was tangential to that world, like a military brat would be, for years. Enough so that I had opinions about which MREs were edible. Dave was my research! Some of the pieces of this book come from me going, "Remember that one story you told me?" to Dave, as well as just a lifelong list of things we'd been collecting that we found curious/funny/fascinating/fun about RPGs, fantasy, and military life.
When it comes to the fantasy and RPG elements, the book we both cited to each other a lot was Diana Wynn Jones's The Tough Guide to Fantasyland which is a must-read for any writer. It's a very good book that points out the bad world-building done by writers who don't do enough research about how things worked in the environments we're supposedly depicting.
If so, what was the most interesting or surprising thing that you learned during your research?
Dave: So if we're going to call my time in service as research (as much as anyone's own lived experiences are research), I think one of the things that has always surprised and delighted me was how much of an individual any given Marine is. We can have a lot in common, but we can be so different, and part of what I wanted to do with this story was pay tribute to that, with our cast of mostly junior enlisted Marines. And apart from coming up with humorous bits and fun references to sprinkle through the story, shaping those characters was the other really great bit of collaboration between us.
Tobias: Yeah, the book doesn't work if we don't have characters we can latch onto as your guides through the experience. Trying to create a cast of unique individuals, as Dave said, is a major part of it all.
You play a lot with the tropes and conventions of both traditional fantasy and role-playing games. Are either of you RPG players? If so, what games do you enjoy playing?
Dave: Oh sure. I love both tabletop and video game RPGs. I'm usually involved as a player in some D&D campaign or another, and I've been DMing for years now as well.
Tobias: I play Skyrim a lot. It's my main fantasy RPG, still. Where I was living in the Caribbean, I wasn't exposed to D&D at all.
Do you have a favorite fantasy novel, television show, or motion picture? A least favorite? (I realize that you may not want to single out a bad one, but if that is the case, please don't. But I also realize it might be so bad that it could be fun to answer.)
Dave: The Lord of the Rings, both the books and the movies, ranks right up there for me. Terry Pratchett’s Discworld novels are my other big go-to. More recently, I really adore Genevieve Cogman’s Invisible Library series.
What was it like to co-write The Runes of Engement? How did you approach and share the writing? What was that like? Would you consider collaborating on another project together? Are there other authors with whom you would like to co-write a book?
Dave: Tobias and I had written four short stories together prior to this, and we'd been friends for the better part of a decade before starting to write together, so the collaboration process went quite smoothly for us. We did a lot of spitballing together, then sat down over a couple of days to write out a really detailed outline. From there, I took on the first draft, and then we just kicked it back and forth a few times, rewriting and refining it as necessary until we were happy with it. I know I'd certainly love to write together again. As far as other authors, I don't know, but I'm game for just about anything. I've collaborated with a couple of other writer friends, which has certainly been a lot of fun.
Tobias: The four stories were great fun, and this novel was (I'm glad Dave agrees up there) a great experience. I'd do it again in a second.
Were there any surprises or challenges for you during the writing of the novel that came from how you collaborated?
Dave: From my perspective, our biggest challenge was just finding the time to work on it. But since it was so much fun to do, it was always easy to come back to.
Tobias: That is always the rub. Both of us are juggling kids, a job, and working on books. It's hard to find the time, particularly in a world with more and more interruptions. But as Dave says, this was a fun project. And every time we went back to revision or copy edits, I'd grumble a little about having more work to do, but within a few pages, I'd fall back into the book, and it'd be a ton of fun laughing again at our jokes.
The Runes of Engagement would make a marvelous film or series. If you were able to cast the production of The Runes of Engagement, who would your dream cast be?
Dave: Every time I think about it, I'm reminded that most of these characters are 18-22, given that they're junior Marines. And then I think about productions like Black Hawk Down or Band of Brothers that had so few "name" actors, especially among the junior enlisted characters in those projects. So, if it were entirely up to me, I'd love to draw from that huge pool of relatively unknown actors to help bring our characters to life. That said, there's one specific cameo that I'd love to include, but I think a close reader might be able to guess who I have in mind for a very small role so that I won't spoil that just now.
Tobias: yeah, that’s the way.
The ending of the book seems to indicate that readers will be able to join Sergeant Cale and his team on another mission. Is The Runes of Engagement the beginning of a new series? If so, what are your plans for the series? Do you have an idea at this time how long the series will be and how many books will be necessary to tell the story you want to tell?
Dave: Oh, we'd love to go on with a series of books set in this universe with these characters. Whether we'd focus on Cale or one of the others would remain to be seen. But yeah, if it does well enough, I can definitely see us going on for additional novels. How many would be another question, of course. It's a wide-open concept, but I don't know that there's any kind of big over-arching Lord of the Rings-type story we're trying to tell just yet.
Tobias: I don't think we're being too coy in saying that we hope so many people buy this book that our publishing teams call us next month and throw wads of cash at us to quit day jobs and become a best-friends duo writing more of these until we end up doing a signing right next to a murder and after asking us for details the cops bring us along on the case and soon we're crime-solving novelist buddies hoping to be renewed for season 2. It works as a concept because each episode would be us at a different location signing books or doing book research that gets set aside in favor of solving a murder, and yet somehow, although we're never seen writing, new books keep coming out.
Dave, as a debut author, what have you learned during the process of getting your novel published that you would like to share with other writers about this experience?
Dave: The number one thing I've learned through all of this is definitely patience. None of this happens overnight, so practicing patience feels essential to the whole process. Beyond that, I'd suggest making sure you find the things you enjoy about the process. The journey is the bulk of the writing and publishing experience, so find joy in it where you can.
What's currently on your nightstand?
Dave: A Prayer for the Crown-Shy by Becky Chambers and a pile of D&D sourcebooks.
Can you name your top five favorite or most influential authors?
Dave: Maybe? I always feel like I'm going to leave out twice as many as I name, but let's give it a go: Terry Pratchett, Lois McMaster Bujold, Douglas Adams, Mikhail Bulgakov, and John Scalzi. Apart from that is, from my co-author. Obviously a huge fan of his, and easy to say he's been quite influential.
What was your favorite book when you were a child?
Dave: The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams, no question.
Was there a book you felt you needed to hide from your parents?
Dave: Not many, but there was Grimtooth's Traps Ate!, which was a third-party D&D supplement from the 1980s-ish which I borrowed from a friend in high school. D&D was outlawed at home for well-known reasons, so one had to be discreet reading.
Tobias: I read so fast that usually, when my parents got around to thumbing through the book, it was already back to the library or to the used bookstore for credit. Sometimes, they took a book, but I'd find another printing. My mom's opinion was that if I could read it, I could have it. My stepdad, not as much, he was the one who would dig through now and then, but he's not a fast reader, and I don't think anyone really understood just how freaking high the turnover rate for books in my room was. I read 1-2 books a day on average from 5th or 6th grade until my second year of university. In high school, at my peak in 10th grade, I remember hitting 2-3 books a day.
Is there a book you've faked reading?
Dave: For sure, but I worry that they'll revoke my degree in history if I publicly acknowledge which ones.
Tobias: There are books I skimmed and maybe didn't say I had skimmed when I was an English Major. Howard's End is a good book, but it drones a bit. I definitely sped through some of Moby Dick a bit faster than I should have, but I can only handle so much whale blubber rendering. And I had a teacher in High School who assigned Atlas Shrugged and that shit got dumb real quick.
Can you name a book you've bought for the cover?
Dave: Well… in a way, yes. Back when my wife and I got into reading Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels we discovered that the Corgi Books editions, published in the UK, had lovely, riotous covers compared to the very plain covers of the US editions. We've got a nice collection of those at this point.
Tobias: Anything Michael Whelan had as a cover I purchased. Anything with a cover by Jim Burns.
Is there a book that changed your life?
Dave: The Hugo Winners, Volumes 1 and 2, edited by Isaac Asimov. It is a great compilation of short stories, novellas, and novelettes that won Hugos over a couple of decades. Apart from the incredible stories themselves, what changed my life was Asimov's introduction to each story, which painted a picture of an eclectic, fascinating world of authors and fans, and set me on my path as a writer.
Tobias: Yes. I won't name it. But… I tracked down a copy not too long ago for my personal records. It was an SF novel I read in 7th grade that was so bad I remember the moment when I had "The Thought.": "I think I could write better than this. Or at least, no worse than this..."
Of course, now I know how hard it was, but that was the first time it started this little idea that kept growing in the back of my head as I tackled this idea.
Can you name a book for which you are an evangelist (and you think everyone should read)?
Dave: I try not to get evangelistic (anymore), but I'm always happy to recommend The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov. Ridiculous and fantastical story of a writer struggling with love and persecution.
Tobias: Rivers Solomon’s An Unkindness of Ghosts gets hand sold by me a lot. Karen Lord’s Redemption in Indigo as well.
Is there a book you would most want to read again for the first time?
Dave: I do miss how hilarious I found Douglas Adams' novels (well, most of them) on first read. But there's so much amazing stuff out there that I haven't read yet, so there's plenty I'd want to just plain old read for the first time before I got around to that kind of re-read.
Tobias: A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge. I've read it 44 times now. Love it every go through, wish I could read it fresh.
What is the last piece of art (music, movies, TV, more traditional art forms) that you've experienced or that has impacted you?
Dave: Well, there’s two meanings there for me. The first answer that pops to mind is performing the role of the Prince in a local staging of Romeo & Juliet, directed by friend and absolute visionary Shannon K. Hurst. Really moving experience as good Shakespeare always is for me. In terms of being a consumer/audience member myself, then I think it might have been the recent adaptation of Shōgun that really amazed me.
Tobias: Wow was that an amazing adaptation. Particularly the last 10 minutes. I really admired how they recontextualized the entire story at that time. Holy cow, just hat's off to them.
What is your idea of THE perfect day (where you could go anywhere/meet with anyone)?
Dave: No chance. I don't have a single answer. It's something along the lines of "Go somewhere cool, hang out with some fun, interesting, and creative people, and maybe lay the groundwork for future collaboration." But the specific place, people, and activities are highly variable.
Tobias: anywhere that has a beach and 80-degree water, some good friends who want to chat about something obscure that they have domain knowledge of, and some good food.
What is the question that you're always hoping you'll be asked but never have been?
Dave: "What’s your favorite D&D gameplay series?"
Tobias: "Do you want that million dollars by check, or should we wire it to you?"
What is your answer?
Dave: "Toss-up between VLDL's NPC D&D on YouTube—great stuff using characters from the group's sketch comedy series—and Dimension 20 on Dropout, particularly when Brennan Lee Mulligan is DMing. Entertaining stuff."
Tobias: I'm old-fashioned, so I'm going with check. Oversized, though. I want the full novelty of it.
What are you working on now?
Dave: I've got a few projects on the go at the moment, one of which is a series of short fantasy novels. I've been letting the players in my current D&D campaign explore the setting, which has been creatively quite energizing. I've also got a sci-fi series that I've been noodling with for a while, and I kind of bounce back and forth between them.
Tobias: (steeples fingers together, looks mysterious)
